Talkin' Shit About A Pretty Sunset

What is your explanation for WTC 7? Did Osama do it?
 

That's pretty sad. I hope he comes out of the haze gradually. A friend of ours has become a surprisingly rabid UFO cover-up truther. A little unsettling, but in all honesty, I'd rather discuss the possibility of UFO's than an intentional attack on our soil by our government. All "facts" aside, it's just too depressing.
 

There's an interesting book called Enemies Within:The Culture of Conspiracy Within Modern America written by a historian who writes that conspiracist thinking has a long history in this country.

He goes through what he called "the big five" conspiracy theories since WWII: 1) Assassination of JFK; 2) The Roswell Incident; 3) The International Communist Conspiracy (ICC); 4) the war on black America; and 5) belief in the Antichrist.

All of those seem to fit within some framework of the logical mind, but when I first heard this 9/11 crap, I couldn't believe the level of immature political thinking could sink any lower. I've been rolling my eyes ever since.
 

Your friend Joe's explanation helps me understand libertarians better now.
 

Political scientist Robert Robins and psychiatrist Jerrold Post have written a lot about conspiracies, mostly the JFK conspiracy crapola. Here's a very poignant point about the JFK theories, and it's very relevant to the 9/11 people:


"The entertainment resources of the paranoid message are unrivaled. It offers puzzles, drama, passion, heroes, villains, and struggle. If the story-line can be tied to an historical event, especially one that involves romantic characters and unexpected death, then fiction, history, and popular delusion can be joined in the pursuit of profit. The story, moreover, need never end. If evidence appears that refutes the conspiracy, the suppliers of the discrediting material will themselves be accused of being part of the conspiracy. The paranoid explanatory system is a closed one. Only confirmatory evidence is accepted. Contradictions are dismissed as being naive or, more likely, part of the conspiracy itself."
 

See...now you've just explained the entire literary career of Thomas Pynchon.
 

I like the description of that MIT prog in your link that describes conspiracy theorists as using the "reverse scientific method".

First is the knowledge of an idea, then the search for supporting facts (including the ommission of negating facts).

Reminds me of "creationist scientists". Aw crap yeah I said it.
 

lonnie bruner writes, "He goes through what he called "the big five" conspiracy theories since WWII:"

The biggest and most consequential conspiracy theory of recent times goes like this:

There is this guy named Saddam Hussein and he is producing and stockpiling all these WMD's. He is in league with another man named, Osama bin Laden who will use these WMD to kill millions of Americans with anthrax via UAV's and eventually there will be mushroom clouds over American cities.

This conspiracy theory has led to the death of thousands of Americans, over 100,000 Iraqi's and million of refugees.

9/11 has already been shown to be an inside job. The debate is over.
 

SEE? "The debate is over." You were right, LB, anybody who argues against THE TRUTH is wrong.

spooky rationale. It's hard to have a conversation with a brick wall.
 

Well, I mean, he DID say that the debate is over ...

Here's another conspiracy theory: The USSR is planning on taking over the world and nuking US cities. Unless we bomb any third world country who's not 110% with us, we will lose the world and our own freedom to Communism.

This conspiracy theory has led to the deaths of thousands of Americans, over 3 to 4 million Vietnamese, around 1.5 million Indonesias, 100,000 East Timorese, over 1.8 million Cambodias, 120,000 Koreans, hundreds of thousands of Laotians, hundreds of thousands of Central Americans and other Latin Americans, and millions of refugees.

So where's the false flag operation that pre-empted all of that?
 

lonnie bruner writes, "So where's the false flag operation that pre-empted all of that?"

The Gulf of Tonkin event was not necessarily a false flag terror event, but it was a hyped event that led to the escalation of the Vietnam War.

Besides the USSR and Communism were real. Joe Stalin was responsible for the murder of millions of people. They did have nuclear weapons. Commusism was growing throughout the 1940, 50's and 60's.

There was no reason for a false flag terror event to persuade people that communism was a threat. The same would apply to Nazi Germany in the early 1940's.

Islamo-Fascism is an entirely made up threat. The neo-cons are trying to convince people that cave-dwelling, mountain roaming tribal people are a threat to our freedom. Ridiculous.

In short, communism was real, an alliance between Saddam and Osama was entirely made up.
 

"The Gulf of Tonkin event was not necessarily a false flag terror event, but it was a hyped event that led to the escalation of the Vietnam War." - I don't disagree with you here.

"Besides the USSR and Communism were real. Joe Stalin was responsible for the murder of millions of people. They did have nuclear weapons. Commusism was growing throughout the 1940, 50's and 60's." - Stalin died in 1953. The USSR was certainly a threat but their real power and scope of their global reach was MUCH less than was told the American people. That became even more obvious with the events of '89-91.

"There was no reason for a false flag terror event to persuade people that communism was a threat. The same would apply to Nazi Germany in the early 1940's." - MANY MANY Americans opposed the Cold War --- as many if not more than oppose the War on Terrorism today. I don't mean this to sound condescending, but tanabear, how old are you? Also, the reference to Nazis alomst renders everything you've said moot. (See Godwin's Law).


"Islamo-Fascism is an entirely made up threat." - I agree that using the term "fascism" in this context is inaccurate. But Islamic terrorism has been a threat for the past few decades --- bumping up a bit more in the past 10 years or so.

"The neo-cons are trying to convince people that cave-dwelling, mountain roaming tribal people are a threat to our freedom.

Ridiculous." -- this is a vast oversimplification of what happened on 9/11/01 and what is happening now. For example, most people who now say they're "Al Queda" likely have no connection to Osama.

"In short, communism was real, an alliance between Saddam and Osama was entirely made up." -- Obviously, you are correct by saying this.
 

lonnie bruner writes, "The USSR was certainly a threat but their real power and scope of their global reach was MUCH less than was told the American people. That became even more obvious with the events of '89-91."

Yes, but this was not necessarily obvious right after WWII when the Cold War began. The Soviet Union dominated the countries of Eastern Europe militarily and installed puppet regimes in such countries as Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania etc. China, the world's most populous country, fell to communism in 1950, then North Korea. As well, the Soviets tested their first atom bomb in 1949.

It was probably the effects of Cuban missile crisis that persuaded many Americans to view the Soviets as a great threat. It also taught us that we cannot be entirley indifferent to the spread of communism, especially in our own hemisphere.

9/11 was entirely different. The neo-cons knew that unless there was another Pearl Harbor like attack against us, that Americans would never go along with their imperial agenda. They stated this clearly in their 2000 document:

"Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event––like a new Pearl Harbor"
Rebuilding America's Defenses

This was put out by the Project for a New American Century. The document was commissioned by Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Jeb Bush.

However, the Empire of Japan is gone, the Nazis are gone and Soviet Communism had been assigned to the dust-bin of history. So there was no power left that could launch another Pearl Harbor like attack against us. So the neo-cons decided to do it themselves.

9/11 was needed to implement all aspects of the neo-con ideology. It was the foundational event that all other crimes of the Bush Administration have been built on. It also helped to create in peoples mind the idea that a ragtag bunch of terrorists were just a big of a threat as Imperial Japan or Soviet Communism. Hence neo-con propagandists always make analogies back to the Cold War and especially WWII. To the neo-cons it is always 1938 all over again.

Nevertheless, 9/11 is the greatest unsolved murder mystery in world history. It is time to banish these demons.
 

Suppose what your friend believes is true and you were mislead into backing a government that is killing innocent people. Won't you feel like an ass when it turns out that what your friend tried to tell you was accurate? Shame on your for trying to discredit a friend; who does that? Dust off those critical thinking skills and take them for a spin.
 

Anon:

The risk is more his than mine: he's the one that's accused huge numbers of innocent people of complicity in a crime. For example, the innocents murdered by hijackers --- he blames some of these people for committing the crime. Not to mention the thousands involved in the investigation, etc. 9/11 Troofery dances on the graves of those murdered --- delights in it as some fantasy game.

All I've done is call him a douchebag for believing such offensive crap.

Who's the one who should be ashamed?

In 10 years, no one will even remember the 9/11 kooks.